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Interesting Ramirez Steel String
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Author:  Dave White [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:01 pm ]
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My friend Raj Spolia came over to see me last night with a couple of guitars (Raj has one of my baritone guitars).

One was a steel string guitar made by Ramirez in 1983 in their famous 1A style. This was an interesting guitar made in the classical fashion (slipper heel, sides inlet, fan braced) but as a steel string. Raj got the guitar from a classical player who didn't play it a lot, so the guitar has probably had little playing in it's 23 years. Ramirez had plans to make around 200 steel strings (apparently in response to Martin making nylon string guitars ) but few seem to have materialised. Raj is in contact with Ramirez about the guitar's history but if any of you know anything he would be keen to hear from you (e-mail to fretless@btopenworld.com).

I thought you OLF'ers would be interested in the guitar so I took a few pics. Top is spruce, sides EIR and the back a five piece of EIR and cypress. It also has a cool pinless bridge. I didn't take any measurements or get to feel the bracing pattern fully but will get around to this. Raj has lights (0.012"-0.053") on it but tuned down a step as at normal tension they choke the top a little. It played nicely as a fingerstyle guitar but despite it's 23 years had some opening up still to do. Anyway here are the pics:










Author:  Serge Poirier [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:57 pm ]
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Cool guitar, is this one Raj's guitar also?
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:24 pm ]
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Dave what a wonderful guitar, I'd love to try it. I think I'd put 10-47s, my usual strings, on it and tune it to pitch. You can see it's classical guitar origins all right. Fabulous rounded shape to the Spanish heel, and the bridge design shows it's adaptation from it's classical bridge. Shows that fan bracing works on SS as well as nylon, you must get dimensions and bracing pattern, it's your civic duty.

Design simplicity and workmanship just shout quality.
Author:  Jeff Doty [ Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:09 am ]
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Seriously cool! I'm with Colin, dimensions and bracing info. is needed. Lots of ideas to borrow from that one.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Jeff
Author:  burbank [ Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:18 am ]
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It does indeed shout quality in its simplicity. Sometimes less is more. Thanks for sharing.
Author:  John K [ Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:01 am ]
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REALLY interesting guitar. Is the binding cypress too? Imagine having to do a neck reset on this guitar with the back overlaping the neck heel as it does. Whew!

But, it has serious old world mojoJohn K38806.462962963
Author:  Graham Steward [ Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:46 am ]
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I'm curious about that bridge. I really like it, but what do people think about its strength and tone production compared to a normal pin type bridge?

I would like to use this Ramirez style for some steel strings I'm going to build, but I want to avoid problems.

Thanks!
Author:  Rick Turner Gui [ Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:12 pm ]
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That is really gorgeous. I love the peghead details, too.
Author:  Shawn [ Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:33 pm ]
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Fascinating guitar. I would be really interested to find out just how many of them are out there in circulation. His is #151 but I wonder about any others.

Has he gotten an appraisal as to its value? I would think that just for its novelty and the Ramirez name it would be collectable.

The 1A's are all done in the main shop (and not jobbed out as the student models are) and usually have some mark as to the primary builder. If he can find any markings inside that might indicate which luthier worked on it it will help Ramirez provide more information about it.

I collect mostly earlier classical and pre-Torres guitars but I am sure that there are collectors who would know more about it. If he ever decides to sell it I would be interested if the price isnt too dear.
Author:  Raj Snake [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:15 am ]
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Hi Shawn and every body else out there.
My name is Raj...a new member.
That's my Ranirez steel string and it IS for sale but I
haven't had it valued....hoping that the Ramirez
factory can help me out.
As far as I know (from the previous owner) there
were plans to build 200..but apparently they didn't ,so
I'm guessing that this must be one of the last
ones.It's condition is 'Near Mint'...I am also willing to
trade for an interesting guitar of similar quality.
Great forum
Author:  CarltonM [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:27 am ]
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Raj,

Welcome to the forum! You can get a reliable appraisal of your instrument from several knowledgeable sources, who may or may not charge a fee for their services (it should be worth it for this guitar), just ask: Elderly Instruments; Gruhn Guitars; Mandolin Brothers; Gryphon Stringed Instruments; probably others, too. All of the above have reliable experts who know guitars and the guitar market, and they all have web sites with contact information. Good luck!

Oops! Sorry Raj! I'd forgotten about your UK location. Any of the above could give you an appraisal for the U.S. market (and there does seem to be an interest here), and can probably do it via e-mailed photos, so that remains an option. There must also be similar shops in your area of the globe that can provide a similar service. Just avoid places that offer to "take it off your hands for...(insert offensively low offer here)." Remember, you'll always get less by selling it to a store; however, reputable places, like those mentioned above, will give you a real market value so you can confidently sell it yourself.CarltonM38807.6086458333
Author:  Shawn [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:33 am ]
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I think that even the usual sources may have a difficult time coming up with a concrete value on this guitar as there really is no precedent to compare...My thought is that Ramirez 1A will be the bar and depending on how many others exist and Ramirez opinion as to whether it was a successful experiment or not it will come in above or below the price mark of a 1A.
Author:  jfrench [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:53 am ]
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The first person I'd ask is Richard Brune. That guitar is likely to have a lot more value to the classical market then the steel string market (just like a Martin classical would have more interest in the steel string side of the market, as a crossover).

I think Richard Brune would be the most qualified person to assess its value. He charges for an appraisal, but it is absolutely worth the money to have it on paper.
Author:  Raj Snake [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:52 am ]
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I don't suppose you have Richard Brune's email
address do you,I've tried his website but can't gain
access as I "don't have the necessary
plug-in"....apparently.
the price range of "normal" model 1A's seems
huge,from about $3500 upwards (some of them
$7000-8000) personally I'd be quite happy with the
lower estimate which seems reasonable
considering it's rarity and condition.
Author:  RussellR [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:01 am ]
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Hi Raj

How are you doing ? Nice to see you.

The Email is contact@rebrune.com

Very nice and curious guitar, how does it sound ?

Russell Rose
Author:  Raj Snake [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:02 am ]
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Hey    Russell,
nice one for the contact.
When I first had the guitar I had 12's on it and it
seemed very reluctant to 'bloom' as it were.I dropped
the tuning down a whole step to D , and it
sounds,feels and plays a lot nicer,i would say that it
excels as a finger style guitar (although I like it's tone
with a pick),bass is there but not too much,mid and
trebles are strong..having said that it's my view that
it's hardly ever been played as it doesn't seem to
have 'opened up' in spite of being 23 years old this is
borne out by it's near mint condition.
hope all is well in wales.
Raj
Author:  RussellR [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:29 am ]
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All is cool in Wales, the Welsh have almost forgiven forgiven me for being English

I forgot to say I Love the look of your new Gypsy Jazz Guitar, beautiful workmanship.

Hope you are pleased with the finished project.

I saw a little parlour a while back that had been fan braced and strung in steel,it was a gem, again it seemed to work best in Dropped Down. At least with the strings.
Author:  Raj Snake [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:58 am ]
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Contacted Richard Brune,unfortunately he was
unable to help,he suggested I try George Gruhn,...so
I have..I'll keep my fingers crossed.This is turning out
to be seriously difficult to get info on...even Ramirez
haven't got back in touch!!
Many thanks for the suggestion though.
Author:  CarltonM [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:13 am ]
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Raj,

Gruhn is a good idea, as are the others I mentioned above (Gryphon is Frank Ford's retail shop--Frank is an OLF member and a lutherie legend, and would most likely be very helpful!). Another thought--you might try one of the major auction houses in London. They have to keep very current about trends and values in unusual musical instruments.
Author:  RussellR [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:24 am ]
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Raj

In another unrelated post I was reminded of Roy Courtnald, he might be able to help you with a valuation, he was the author of making master guitars is an instructor at Newark. He is a very helpful guy and I know he trades in hogh end classicals, as well as making them.

His contact details are on his website Guitar Plans UK
Author:  Raj Snake [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:59 am ]
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Thanks,
I emailed Gruhn's,Mandolinn Bros.and Gryphon
today ...got a reply from George Gruhn who
remembers them well , saw them when they were
launched at Frankfurt,and apparently had a chat to Mr
Ramirez himself about them at the time AND bought
3 of them..I've just paid for an appraisal and await
the results,as soon as I know the value I'll let you
know...should be interesting.
Author:  Raj Snake [ Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:33 am ]
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Hi,
just to let you know that I got a very informative and
interesting appraisal from George Gruhn.
This model was never actually introduced in their
model line ,they were built as an experimental model
to test the market.apparently the back woods
vary,and so do the bracing patterns.
Less than 200 were produced (confirmed),of the 3
that Gruhns had Bela Fleck loved the tone so much
he bought 2 of them!!
anyway lastly he has valued it at $3750.
The man knows more than Ramirez!!! who still
haven't got back to me.
His knowledge is very impressive.
Author:  CarltonM [ Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:29 am ]
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Raj,

I'm not surprised at Gruhn's knowledge. He's one of the first dealers in the U.S. to take an interest in the "used" guitars that have now become highly valued. He's been doing this for over three decades. As for Ramirez, their focus is on building and selling new guitars, and they probably care little about the value of used instruments; especially their "failed" experiments.
Author:  jfrench [ Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:12 pm ]
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Great to hear you got a solid appraisal on the instrument. Its worth every penny to have if you intend to sell that guitar.
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